Discussion of various doctrinal concepts.
Really long and asinine discussion on the future of polygamy and what you should be doing about it (ldsfreedomforum.com)
submitted 6 months ago by cookiecaper
ryanjkirk 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago[-]
Yikes. After being used to reddit, that forum format is utterly unredable. tl;dr.
cookiecaper [S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago* [-]
Yeah, the reddit format makes things like that much easier.
In that format, the terrible posts are much more obstinate and imposing and hard to get around. In the reddit format, only the good stuff floats to the top and the rest is far away tucked into obscurity where it won't bother anybody.
peter 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago[-]
Ugh. Too long. I'm sort of interested, but the length and high probability of irritation is going to keep me away.
cookiecaper [S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago[-]
Word. There's some summaries below. I'd like to hear your take and position on the general matter.
Yours truly as zionlist.com.
Thing is really long, really obnoxious, and pretty atrocious. Thought I'd offer it here for comments.
ryanjkirk 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago* [-]
How about offering a recap on all that? I could not get through it. This site would be much better suited to that discussion. Maybe I'll go there and say that.
EDIT: nevermind. That forum is filled with the most annoying type of right-wing fundamentalist mormons I've ever seen. I would prefer them to stay far away from here.
2nd EDIT: that was quite the pedantic post ("stupid people") but you subsequently recovered. I still chimed in, for what it's worth.
Yeah, I was really frustrated when I made that post, and I had no intention of returning, but I was invited back specifically by some members there asking for my input in the linked debate (there is another thread earlier which the linked thread rose from here).
It's not really part of my disposition to sugarcoat things. I try to maintain decorum but they had well destroyed that earlier on by their functionally illiteracy. It could have been nicely worded, but frankly I wanted the effect from that wording more, especially considering no one there can seem to bring themselves to read more than three consecutive words.
I have met a few good people from there, most of whom don't post very often any more. I have invited several of those over here, and I hope they come.
ryanjkirk 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago[-]
I read part of that thread. You have an interesting thought about moving to Missouri now. Have you done this?
I know D&C 52:42 commands to build up Zion in Missouri, but subsequently a commandment was given by Brigham Young to leave Missouri for Utah. More recently it's been taught that Saints should build up Zion in their home countries. That is a specific command not to go to Missouri. I believe I'm supposed to be spreading the gospel in my local area as well, even though I don't live in a foreign country.
I personally would love to move to Missouri and live the law of consecration with the saints. I can't tell you how much I would love to leave the world behind and live in Zion. I feel like I am essentially biding my time right now. But I know it's not the right move for my family right now for financial reasons, and I do believe I'm choosing the right by staying where I am and being an example to my neighbors.
Thoughts?
Well, I don't really think people should move to Missouri now unless they feel inspired to do so. I just used the scriptural references to the necessity of acquiring land as an illustration that there are many things in the scriptures which people are missing, and that we must learn and practice our scriptures very well if we're ever going to become what we've been commanded to be. See D&C 84:53-59:
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now. 54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received— 55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. 56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. 57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written— 58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion. 59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.
This Church has been under commandment to build Zion since its first generation. Not many generations of Saints have taken that commandment seriously. I want to get people to take it seriously so that our generations can be those blessed to build the Holy City.
To me, part of taking that commandment to build Zion seriously means searching the scriptures diligently for things we can do to help. I think that the several times the D&C implores the Saints to purchase lands in and around the Center Place is still applicable, and I don't really understand why people think that that's not necessary anymore. It's black and white in the D&C that the Lord wants His people to obtain lands as He gives unto them power to do so.
I haven't moved to Missouri, but I actually grew up over the state line in Kansas, about twenty miles from Independence.
I feel like we're needed where we are right now, too, and I'm not suggesting that there should be a mass migration to MO. In fact, I don't know that there ever will be; many are waiting around for the prophet to announce it, but that doesn't seem practical to me. The New Jerusalem will be built by the righteous who were gathered up to the area by the Lord, and I am somewhat skeptical that these righteous will be gathered by general commandment of the prophet. I think they will come on orders delivered specifically to them by the Lord.
The Lord has commanded His people to gather up lands there for the usage of Zion, and I expect the Saints to fulfill that as they are given the ability to do so. That's what I'm talking about.
I do think there's a lot of value in remaining dispersed generally. We are still in the gathering phase. Part of the reason I created zionlist is so we could get to know good, Zion-level people, so we can emulate them, associate with them, and learn and socialize with them. There's a lot of good people and good Saints out there and I think that they must network and find each other and gather in from their scattered status emotionally before they do so physically.
I think that there will be a lot of cool and awesome things happening soon. I hope that we can all qualify for them.
cookiecaper [S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago* [-]
The recap is essentially that some believe that plural celestial marriage is an eternal, celestial law which they will one day be called upon to receive as the fullness of the new and everlasting covenant if they are qualified. This groups sees it as a blessing because it makes us more like God.
The other group is disgusted by the concept of plural marriage insofar that they've admitted to physically retching at the thought. They don't seem to believe that plural marriage is ever going to make a comeback, they don't believe that the Lord would ever ask them to participate, and they seem to believe that the institution was a private test for the Saints asked to practice it and that though they admit some plural marriages will exist in the celestial world, they believe that it has no important place or significant in eternal law, and that those born in this day will receive all glory without ever having to participate in plural marriage at any point in eternity.
This group also believes that anyone preparing their hearts to receive a command to live in a plural marriage, anticipated by the first group as a day wherein they will be privileged to take part in full of the new and everlasting covenant, is violating temple covenants, breaking the heart of any current wife, and doing many other evil things. I try to tell them this is not so, but they can't read.
I am among the first group. I have serious doubts about the reading comprehension and open-mindedness of the others, because it seems that they've spent the entire thread randomly selecting and then reading only half of the words posted and making conclusions off of that. I have to literally quote old posts and bold the relevant parts before they'll admit that they issue they were harping wasn't what had been said in first place.
ryanjkirk -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago[-]
I think you're basically right, but I would add that most saints today are probably not ready to prepare their hearts and minds for that eternal law. I think the stepping stone to that is preparedness for the complete fulfillment of the law of consecration, and most are pretty far away from that as well. You don't hear a prophet talking about preparing for plural marriage because we're just not ready for it. But I think at some point that will happen.
I think it's safe to say that once people are ready and living the law of consecration, they will be much more open-minded to other higher eternal laws. In a sense, I think it's fine for them not to worry about it if it's going to give them doubts and fears. Milk before meat.
calico 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago[-]
I think it's safe to say that once people are ready and living the law of consecration, they will be much more open-minded to other higher eternal laws.
This is a good point. To me, plural marriage is a relevant aspect of the law of consecration insomuch that it is being totally selfless with your husband and wife and sharing them with another. No, not just physically, but emotionally as well. So it makes sense that consecration would help to prepare others' hearts for that higher law of plural marriage.
I agree with this too. I think that part of the reason the law of consecration is specifically mentioned in the temple is because the Lord is attempting to get people to at least accept that law of sharing of money and temporal materials so that they will be ready to accept the law of plural marriage that requires a much more personal and intimate form of emotional sharing.
I just wish people would start taking these things seriously. I feel like so many in the Church just go about their lives as normal Gentiles, and that they don't want to own up to their peculiarities and special callings because it's more comfortable to be like everyone else. They do what they need to do to get a temple recommend and then they're satisfied and feel little additional responsibility. I want to see that change.
Yeah, I agree. The subject came up in the first place in a thread about general frustrations with the membership. The revisionist attitude of most in the Church toward the history and doctrinal basis for plural marriage is one of my greatest pet peeves, so I made a passing mention of it. The place freaked the crap out that someone would suggest plural marriage is not evil and that's brought us to this point.
I guess I just wish they'd be intellectually honest about the nature of these things. It's fine to be uncomfortable or to have doubts or whatever, but the smear campaign that occurs against our early leaders and against an eternal doctrine is greatly irritating to me because it's completely dishonest to espouse such false teachings.
I'm doing my best to ignore the thread now because I do believe it's gone on too long and that it's basically just morphed into stubborn people on both sides trying to be right instead of a useful doctrinal discussion.
I also believe that the prophets will bring it to the Church generally when the Church generally is prepared to receive it, and attempting to step out of line with that example just leads to weakening of testimony and other bad things for those not sufficiently advanced to bear the doctrine.
We must remember that prophets are prophets for the Church generally, however, and that we are prophets for ourselves and our own families and stewardships.
I kind of regret allowing myself to get dragged so deeply into it. : (
LOL. Yeah, they don't listen to anything and misinterpret everything you say. I still want more traffic here though, so any traffic is good traffic I guess.
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ryanjkirk 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago[-]
cookiecaper [S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago* [-]
peter 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago[-]
cookiecaper [S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago[-]
cookiecaper [S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago[-]
ryanjkirk 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago* [-]
cookiecaper [S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago[-]
ryanjkirk 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago[-]
cookiecaper [S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago[-]
cookiecaper [S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago* [-]
ryanjkirk -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago[-]
calico 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago[-]
cookiecaper [S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago[-]
cookiecaper [S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago[-]
calico 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago[-]